Why did we remove Bluetooth DUN?

Article
04/17/2007

I’m Greg Scott and I work as a developer on a team that provides core networking technologies on Windows Mobile. There has been some [negative] feedback from the community about Bluetooth dial-up networking (DUN) being removed in WM5 AKU3. I’ll do my best to explain that.

Internet [Connection] Sharing

In WM5 AKU3 we introduced a new application called “Internet Sharing”. The technology behind this is actually referred to as Internet Connection Sharing (ICS). But our usability folks decided to drop the word “Connection” since it didn’t fit nicely in the user interface.

ICS is something we’ve shipped as a component in the Windows CE operating system for several releases. We have now brought this technology to Windows Mobile. ICS allows you to share a public network connection (cellular data) with a private network connection (Bluetooth PAN or USB). The phone is basically acting like a your home’s wireless router.

Modem Link

Before Internet Sharing, we shipped an application called Modem Link. This application enables some of the same functionality provided by ICS. Modem Link supported sharing the cellular data connection over USB, IrDA, or Bluetooth. For Bluetooth, the DUN profile was used.

Instead of sharing the Internet connection at the IP layer, as ICS does, Modem Link enables the PC to directly send commands to the cellular radio on the device.

How is Internet Sharing better?

ICS is superior to the modem link technology in several ways.

1) Usability: With Modem Link, users need to enter dial strings (e.g. *99#) to connect their PC to the Internet. This is not necessary with Internet Sharing.

2) Uninterrupted connectivity: ICS can continue to be connected when you get an incoming voice call. Modem Link will give up the cellular radio for the phone to answer the voice call. Internet Sharing will stay connected in this scenario. On some cellular networks it is not able to send or receive data. The cellular network needs to support simultaneous voice/data to provide the best user experience. This is supported on 3G networks.

3) Full connectivity: When you are connected over ICS, the applications on your device (e.g. ActiveSync) remain connected to the Internet. This is not the case with Modem Link.

4) Future enhancements: Unfortunately I’m not allowed to discuss new features we are planning. But you can probably imagine some of the new features we can add with a fully IP-based solution.

5) Compatibility with future cellular radio technology. New cellular radios are supporting an IP packet-based interface as opposed to the legacy serial-based interface. Modem Link and Bluetooth DUN are dependent on the legacy serial interface but Internet Sharing can function over either interface.

So far we have gotten mostly positive feedback about Internet Sharing. Most people have commented that it “just works” compared to the process of setting up your phone as a modem with Modem Link.

With that said, we have gotten some feedback that ICS usability is actually worse in some cases. The Internet Sharing app requires that the user first “connect” ICS before connecting Bluetooth PAN from the PC. With DUN you could initiate everything from the PC side. This is something we’ll work on improving in the future.

But why did we remove Bluetooth DUN?

So you may be thinking, ok, Internet Sharing is really cool but why did you need to remove Bluetooth DUN?!? My car kit or Mac does not support Bluetooth PAN and I relied on this legacy technology.

Actually, Microsoft did not remove Bluetooth DUN completely. We still ship this technology to our OEMs. It is included in an optional package that OEMs and operators can decide to ship on a per device basis. Internet Sharing is also in an optional package. We did change one thing though. Internet Sharing is included by default and Bluetooth DUN no longer is.

Bluetooth DUN is a legacy technology that is likely to disappear over time. Especially when you look at the great experience Internet Sharing provides with Bluetooth PAN. It also does not make sense for cellular radios to continue supporting a legacy interface just to enable Bluetooth DUN. In the past we received a lot of criticism about Modem Link, especially related to usability. For this reason we decided not to include it by default.

Anyway, based on continued feedback from the community, we have changed our minds! We will bring Bluetooth DUN back by default in a future WM6 AKU release. Keep in mind that OEMs and operators still have the final say whether DUN will end up on a specific device.

Feedback

So, please give us your feedback. We’d love to hear what new features you’d like to see in Internet Sharing, whether you’ve had a good or bad experience, etc. Thanks!

Comments

Anonymous
April 17, 2007
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Anonymous
April 17, 2007
So, your explanation as to the question "Why did you remove bt dun?" is that just because ICS is "cooler" ? Regardless of what the users think or want? OK, ICS works, but you should have left the bt stack unchanged and let us decide which one to use. BT PAN is a pain and slower on my setup than just using BT DUN. Thank you anyway for your article.
Anonymous
April 17, 2007
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Anonymous
April 17, 2007
Once again I find that something was snatched away from under my nose, you just don't get do you, when you take a feature away without phasing it out it causes great disharmony - in MS case from you, to manufactors, to carriers, to users - gee did MS think of that - NO. Your bluetooth stack is already second rate to that of Widcomm, now you hampered it more, I cannot buy any of the stereo bluetooth headsets that I want because the MS stack does not play nice, I'm talking clicks and poor use of features that should work, e.g. being able to resume after a call, most of features are not working with a MS bluetooth stack but with a Widcomm stack, why oh why is this? You (MS) should firstly make your stack a working stack, then add features not delete them and then make note of all the forums around the net with disgruntled users that have bought a headset that does not work because of your stack.
Anonymous
April 17, 2007
Have you guys really read the full article before complaining? Microsoft did not remove the feature, just made it non default for the OEMs. Complain to the OEMs and they will bring the feature back. Microsoft seems to not have any dialog with the actual end users but with the OEMs. I find it very strange that Microsoft keeps implementing new features in AKUs making devices with the same Windows Mobile version different. Some devices are still on AKU 2 and will probably never ever see AKU 3. Personally I'm all for new useful features, but maybe Microsoft should wait until the next major release insead of sneaking in the features in AKU updates that may or may not be in the devices on the market. It's also sad that Microsoft does not provide a feature addition list for new AKUS for end users.
Anonymous
April 18, 2007
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Anonymous
April 18, 2007
I like JasperM's idea. I would really like to see the AKUs become more like a Windows Update. If the carrier sees that it is rock solid and no problems, then they can release it as a ROM upgrade and have it be always installed but my phone that is 8 months old has AKU2.3 and no plans to go any further since Wm6 is out. If I had the option to download AKU3 over the top of my current install I would be willing to try it. If it didn't work, then I would hard reset it back to how the carrier decided it would work on their network and away we go.
Anonymous
April 18, 2007
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Anonymous
April 18, 2007
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Anonymous
April 18, 2007
First, thanks for the article - it explained a lot. This question has been bugging me (along with a lot of other WinMob users) right from the introduction of AKU3 and this is why I've written a full overview & comparison of the new model on the Pocket PC Magazine Expert Blog at http://www.pocketpcmag.com/blogs/index.php?blog=3&p=1415&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 (also frontpaged by Pocket PC Thoughts). It's also nice to know cell phone rebranders / manufacturers could include DUN if they wanted to. You should consider forcing them to include it as the lack of DUN is, in my opinion, decidedly a problem. However, there are some things in the article I disagree with.

You state "Bluetooth DUN is a legacy technology that is likely to disappear over time. Especially when you look at the great experience Internet Sharing provides with Bluetooth PAN. It also does not make sense for cellular radios to continue supporting a legacy interface just to enable Bluetooth DUN. In the past we received a lot of criticism about Modem Link, especially related to usability. For this reason we decided not to include it by default." I'd add that you don't need Modem Link (see for example my related DUN tutorials - for example the one at http://www.pocketpcmag.com/blogs/index.php?blog=3&p=510&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 ) for internet dial-up. This (the lack of need to do anything on the PPC for the dial-up) is a BIG advantage of the old, DUN-based approach. I use a GPRS+ connection from my notebook a LOT and found having to start internet sharing manually very tiring on the long run (this is why, finally, I've switched back to using an old, DUN-based Sony-Ericsson t68i for dial-up.)
PAN client is NOT supported on many platforms; therefore, I wouldn't call BT DUN a legacy technology. Microsoft BT stack on Windows Mobile (while the Broadcom BT stack, naturally, works great with the BT PAN-based connection sharing); several older (non-MS / Broadcom) BT stacks even on the desktop; the Nokia 770/800, Palm OS, older versions of Mac (fortunately, as has been also pointed out in my AKU3 article, never versions of Mac OS X already support PAN). Also, Linux can be harder to configure to use PAN than DUN (for example, on my Sharp Zaurus C760, I've never managed to make BT PAN connections work, unlike BT DUN ones). That is, it'd be REALLY great if Microsoft DID force phone manufacturers to make DUN available again, if it is already available. Not an optional package but an obligatory one.

Anonymous
April 18, 2007
Removing DUN also stops for your phone from connecting to GPS devices such as the tomtom1 which use DUN as the connection method. Now I have no traffic alerts etc when I am driving.
Anonymous
April 18, 2007
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Anonymous
April 18, 2007
Kenny Oldenskov, while I agree that A2DP could be better and more standards-compliant (many (but not all!) current A2DP stereo BT headphones don't really support the MS BT stack, which does result in quality problems as is explained in, for example, http://www.pocketpcmag.com/blogs/index.php?blog=3&p=1744&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 ), I've never encountered music resuming problems. Which headphones model are you having problems with?
Anonymous
April 18, 2007
Alos, you may want to consider making DUN support a downloadable update for Windows Mobile. If some carriers don't want their users to use DUN at all, then, there can even be some lock-out mechanism in the update so that it wouldn't run on the devices released by these carriers. Such a move would REALLY improve the usefulness of the platforms. (Again, I have to point out that the DUN-based approach, on the long run, is WAY more convenient if you often connect/disconnect your client. With DUN, you don't need to manually start IS all these cases. This is why I've reverted back to using a very old S-E phone for dial-up purposes.)
Anonymous
April 18, 2007
I blogged about your decision to remove DUN <a href="http://eugenia.blogsome.com/2007/04/17/dun-vs-pan/">here</a>. While I prefer PAN instead of DUN, the point remains, Mac OS X, Linux and older Windows OSes with older BT software WILL NOT be able to use PAN (at least not easily). Yes, you should have added PAN, as you did, but you should have ALSO KEPT DUN. Let the new users all use PAN, but let the users who are RELYING on DUN because of the operating system and BT drivers they are running to also have the ability to do so.
Anonymous
April 18, 2007
The above correct link is: http://eugenia.blogsome.com/2007/04/17/dun-vs-pan
Anonymous
April 18, 2007
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Anonymous
April 18, 2007
Legacy or not, Win98, old Bluetooth dongle software, OSX and Linux requires DUN. You should never had removed it. You should just left it in there and let new people use PAN and old users to use DUN. Right now, you created one big mess by removing a major feature that exists on ALL cellphones.
Anonymous
April 18, 2007
As I see it, this is another case of MS deciding for us how to use technology, rather than the letting us decide for ourselves. The WHOLE point of bluetooth is to connect to other "things". It exists for no other reason, yet, the Windows Mobile team decided that one of the primary methods currently supported by large numbers of devices for this purpose no longer was a necessary, and would only be installed as an extra. Much like how we don't need a close button I guess, despite years of proof otherwise, or how we can no longer sync over WiFi, or how we can no longer chose to sync only specific categories, the list goes on and on. It doesn't matter if it's legacy technology and cellular radios don't need modem commands. What matters is that the devices that these cellular radios need to communicate with often require these commands! Did all of our existing DUN devices vanish from the face of the earth when AKU3 when was released, of course not. I would hope the development team understands how users of the software actually use the devices when making these decisions, but then we see these types of decisions made over and over again. As a long time PPC/WM user, I can tell you right now I am fed up with you constantly removing features without thinking of me, and my needs. I currently own 8--yes 8 WM devices, but I suspect I may have purchased my last. I am finding myself less and less attracted to this platform as the WM team contineus to try and dumb it down to the lowest common denominator.
Anonymous
April 18, 2007
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Anonymous
April 18, 2007
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Anonymous
April 18, 2007
MikeCal, great to hear you'll make DUN mandatory again. (Will this update be releeased for all current WM5 AKU3 / WM6 devices?) DUN IS currently a must and OEM's MUST understand this. Without DUN, you can't have for example other Windows Mobile devices use other AKU3+ WinMob devices as dial-up modems (and the list, of course, continues: the Nokia 770/800, older, non-MS/non-Broadcom BT sticks and CF/SD cards for the desktop, some flawors of Linux etc.) Also, please PLEASE do redesign BT PAN / Internet Sharing in order NOT to have to manually start it each time (!) we want to use the mobile as a modem. This issue, currently, greatly hampers its usability. Finally, any plans to implement full BT PAN support (not only for IS) in the MS BT stack as is the case with the Broadcom BT stack? (I've also elaborated on this stuff pretty thoroughly in my article so I won't list in here what I'm referring to.)
Anonymous
April 18, 2007
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Anonymous
April 18, 2007
MikeCal, great to see it will be in by default. The result of the previous situation was that the phone was closed for work with any non-MS computer. This will fix the situation. Good to hear.
Anonymous
April 19, 2007
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Anonymous
April 19, 2007
MikeCal: You asked "We've already said that we're putting it back to "in by default." Is there something else we can do?" Yes, you can release a patch that will enable DUN support on AKU3 devices. And while I'm requesting things that will never happen, you can re-enable category syncing in ActiveSync/Mobile Device Center. I'm very curious to hear an explanation of the benefit of removing this feature? Was that also too complicated for users to understand? Sorry to be sarcastic, but the too complicated argument doesn't hold water, if it's too complicated users will ignore it anyway.
Anonymous
April 19, 2007
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Anonymous
April 19, 2007
For the most part I do like the way that Internet Sharing works; it is very easy. But I don't like that I have to go through so many steps on the phone to turn it on. I wish there was a way to have the phone turn on USB Internet Sharing by default, so every time I plug in a USB cable to a computer it provides an internet connection. I sync only via Exchange and the only time I ever connect my phone to my computer via USB it is so I can connect to the Internet. For Bluetooth, the phone should be able to tell devices that it supports PAN, and automatically connect to the Internet whenever a PAN connection is requested, instead of having to set it up on the phone each time. For legacy applications I would love to see DUN brought back too. As mentioned above, Macs and Linux don't support PAN so devices with IS only enabled they have no way to connect. The other concern I have (though it isn't a big one) is that connections using Internet Sharing use private IP addresses rather than the IP provided by the carrier. In the case of my T-Mobile Dash, I pay for the VPN plan and actually get a real public IP address, but because the IP seen by my computer is private some applications just don't work. Fortunately the biggest one that would cause problems actually does work (PPTP VPN), so this isn't a huge issue for me. Just kind of annoying that I am paying for a real IP address but I can't use it.
Anonymous
April 19, 2007
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Anonymous
April 19, 2007
djdj, yes, you get a private address (as on any LAN's), which may indeed be problematic. However, you can configure many (PC) clients (for example, most p2p apps) to report any other IP address as the "real" IP address of the machine it's running on. If you do provide your (that is, your WinMob phone's) public address (by overriding your private one), even incoming requests will work on your public address (IS does a full port forwarding - as has also been explained in my all-in-one AKU3 Dial-Up Bible ( http://www.pocketpcmag.com/blogs/index.php?blog=3&p=1415&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 )). You may want to check this out - your particular apps may also let for supplying another IP address.
Anonymous
April 19, 2007
Pete, imagine if you had a Dell laptop with a special piece of display hardware that only Dell knew how to write the driver for. And, imagine if the XP driver for that hardware didn't work on Vista. Finally, imagine if Dell didn't write a Vista version of their display driver for that laptop. At that point, Dell most certainly DID rule which updates you can put on your computer. Or, at least, you'd be welcome to upgrade to Vista, you just wouldn't see anything on the screen. That's the siutaion in the phone space. The drivers are OEM-specific, and if they don't provide updated drivers, then you can't upgrade. Sure, you could put a standard WM6 image on your device, but it wouldn't boot. Mike
Anonymous
April 19, 2007
I wanted to address some of the feedback I've seen so far. Just a few comments for now.

BT PAN OS Compatibility According to various web sites, Mac OS 10.4.9 supports Bluetooth PAN. The "standard" Linux Bluetooth stack (BlueZ) supports Bluetooth PAN (and at one time I actually set this up and tested it).
Will MS ship a CAB file to install DUN on WM5 AKU3 devices? There are some platform specific bits that OEMs typically need to set up when they ship a device with PAN. So it may not be a solution that works on all devices. I'll look into it though. I believe there may also be some 3rd-party DUN solutions for certain devices.
Did we also disable DUN client too? We still support DUN "client" (aka: terminal) role on PPC/Pro/Classic SKUs. This allows you to connect to modem devices (such as the one manufactured by Socket) or any other device supporting DUN "server". Thanks, Greg

Anonymous
April 19, 2007
"Pete, imagine if you had a Dell laptop with a special piece of display hardware that only Dell knew how to write the driver for. And, imagine if the XP driver for that hardware didn't work on Vista. Finally, imagine if Dell didn't write a Vista version of their display driver for that laptop. At that point, Dell most certainly DID rule which updates you can put on your computer. Or, at least, you'd be welcome to upgrade to Vista, you just wouldn't see anything on the screen." This is where I bow to your superior knowledge. I don't have any idea about the hardware in question, but the way I was thinking is this:

Windows Mobile would ship in a CD just like a regular OS, with Professional and Standard versions separate.
As WM installs on your device, it checks to see what drivers it needs and installs only those on the device since all the drivers are bundled in the Windows Mobile installation CD.
As it turns out which manufacturers don't write drivers for their devices, we stop buying from those manufacturers. Just like if I buy a phone at the shop I know whether I'm buying a Samsung or a Sanyo, so too I'll know whether I'm buying a Motorola or an HTC and which company is good about releasing drivers. Take care, Pete

Anonymous
April 19, 2007
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Anonymous
April 19, 2007
In every single WM device on the market, the OEMs write the drivers. There are no standard drivers to install off the CD because there is no standard hardware. I'm sure we'll get to a point sometime in the future where the hardware standardizes, but phones are advancing too quickly these days for that to happen. The PC industry was just like this at this point in it's life cycle. And, at that time, you relied on the OEM to provide the drivers for you. If they didn't, you couldn't upgrade. Mike
Anonymous
April 19, 2007
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Anonymous
April 19, 2007
Up until now, I was considering buying the upcoming PPC 6800 from Sprint. It is supposedly coming with WM5 AKU 3.3. It sounds like I should wait and see if they ever update the phones to WM6. So whatever the reasoning is for the DUN decisions, it's costing the carrier the sale. I can wait to update my phone. I kept my last one for 4 years and it worked fine. I agree with everyone who says that there should be some way for Microsoft to deal directly with the public when it comes to smartphones. Microsoft can hardly be a company that should be a beggar at the table in this industry. It's acting like a desparate upstart trying to get a foot in the door. The great thing that MS did in the 80s, was to decouple the OS from the equipment. That needs to happen again with smartphones. If Microsoft can't provide consumer needs to the consumer, maybe it's a sign that it's time for government intervention to deal with the cell carriers and take away their equipment monopoly, as happened with land carriers in the 80s.
Anonymous
April 19, 2007
Hi Greg, It has been enlightening for me to read your posting on BT DUN and ICS. The reason I'm posting here is bcos I am having intermittent connecton problems to the Internet using ICS on my brand new SGH-i600. My Internet connection works for a few minutes, then I encounter connection problems for a few minutes and then connection is restored and this cycle seems to continue perpetually. When I hit this problem, I immediately used back my Nokia 6630 for DUN connection and the Internet connection was stable. So, I don't think it's my service providers RF problem but may have something to do with ICS. I did not have such problems previously when I was using my Nokia 6630 (Symbian 8.0) to connect to the Internet via BT modem or USB modem thru DUN. I access the Internet thru my PC using my mobile phone as a modem as I am subscribed to my service provider's unlimited data plan (EDGE network). I've been scouring the Net in vain to find out if anyone has the same problem as me using SGH-i600 and how the problem can be resolved. Hope you could help me out here. Thanks.
Anonymous
April 19, 2007
KS Lim, did you give a try to for example pinging any Web site in the background? It MIGHT fix the issue. Also see http://www.pocketpcmag.com/blogs/index.php?blog=3&title=how_to_combat_automatic_disconnecting_fr&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 . Note that "ping" is built into desktop operating systems; that is, you won't need to install third-party apps (like vxUtil on Windows Mobile) in order to make permanent pinging work. Also, if it's an IP issue (for example, the SGH is constantly trying to give you a new private IP though DHCP), could you check out your local IP every time you enounter connection problems? Do you see "Acquiring network address" showing DHCP is in the process of giving you a new IP?
Anonymous
April 20, 2007
MikeCal, Would it be possible to distribute the DUN via the Windows Mobile update feature in WM6? Or is this not what the Windows Update feature was designed for? This would solve the problem of someone getting a WM6 devices with an AKU previous to whatever AKU implemented the DUN Profile is implemented in. It would also give the user the ability to choose if they wanted DUN or not. -JasperM
Anonymous
April 20, 2007
Frankenbike: re: "Microsoft can hardly be a company that should be a beggar at the table in this industry." Yet we are. Power in one industry does not translate to power in another. JasperM: Greg is the real guy to ask. His posts show up as being from "WindowsMobile" because he just started posting and we didn't make him an admin on the blog yet. But he's the BTh guy. He said above that he's looking into making a CAB install for DUN. As for whether or not this is what Windows Update was desgined for, I'm not sure. The main goal of Windows Update is bug fixes and security updates. I suppose it should be possible to do new features there as well. But I suspect you don't really care if you get the feature via Windows Update or some other way. You just want the feature back. I think Greg is better off focusing on the feasability of providing a CAB file than figuring out how to distribute it via Windows Update. Mike
Anonymous
April 20, 2007
MikeCal: Doesn't the Windows Update feature write the updates to ROM? That would be the only slight advantage that I could see, in case of the needs for a hard reset. But I believe the end is the same, the user gets the functionality they desire. Its great to see that there are avenues for the average user to be able to comment on something as low level as adding features into Windows Mobile. The fact that you listen to comments, both good and bad, bode well for the Windows Mobile group, and the responsiveness to the community that you do have. -JasperM
Anonymous
April 20, 2007
How would the removal of BT DUN affect mobile dial-up access to landline numbers via GSM CSD or HSCSD via Smartphone? This service is used not only for mobile access to ISPs (possibly independent of the mobile network provider) where GPRS or 3G is not available but also for data telemetry to landline connections and for wireless alarm systems independent of connection via the IP network of the mobile 'phone ISP. (The mobile 'phone network provides the interface to the PSTN.) As others have implied above, to leave the decision whether to include BT DUN in the hands of mobile 'phone providers appears to be promoting monopolistic behaviour. Especially where as seems to be the case in the USA but not so much internationally, 'phones are often provided by and locked to the mobile network providers.
Anonymous
April 23, 2007
Filed under: Windows Mobile , Misc Something that has probably caused quite a few Windows Mobile 5 customers
Anonymous
April 24, 2007
and another question, how can I remove internet sharing(IS) if I found it conflict with my application?
Anonymous
April 24, 2007
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Anonymous
April 25, 2007
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Anonymous
April 25, 2007
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April 25, 2007
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April 25, 2007
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Anonymous
April 26, 2007
First, it's not true that mobile operators don't pay attention to this stuff. Second, we're in no position whatsoever to require that anyone make use of an AKU we release. For the most part, new devices pick up the newest AKU, but existing devices generally don't update to it. Just telling us to have power we don't is like telling us to learn to fly. Yes, I'd love to be able to flap my arms and fly home at night, but no matter what angry comments I get on the blog, I'm not going to suddenly be able to do it. Mike
Anonymous
April 26, 2007
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Anonymous
April 28, 2007
Hi MikeCal, One feature I used to use all the time with Bluetooth DUN is that I was able to connect to it from my laptop or another smartphone without having to enable it. So I could just keep my phone on my pocket and connect it to it. With ICS I have to go in an start it and then I am able to connect to it. If the connection was broken by any reason I would have to do it again. I am assuming this cannot be added to ICS.
Anonymous
April 29, 2007
So if it is just a matter of turning it back on, why not share it with us (leak it to the web)?
Anonymous
May 01, 2007
I used BT DUN w/ my car kit - would love to see it back - I have actually switched to my Nok phone while in the car...
Anonymous
May 04, 2007
Clarification? 2) Uninterrupted connectivity: ICS can continue to be connected when you get an incoming voice call. Modem Link will give up the cellular radio for the phone to answer the voice call. Is this correct? I had thought DUN was used as the protocol used just between the PC and the phone; it's up to the phone to decide how to connect to the Internet/provider. I would like to understand. Thanks.
Anonymous
May 08, 2007
This must be costing sales of Windows Mobile devices. I've just got a Samsung i600 - a lovely phone but it's going to have to go back as it won't work with my Nokia N800 or Tomtom. So, the Samsung gets returned and I'll be looking at getting a Nokia Symbian device. You just can't abandon a technology which is in so widespread use! - something that I think Nokia realise and Microsoft don't...
Anonymous
May 08, 2007
ICS Sharing is great on my PPC6700 (homemade AKU 3.5 upgrade on the internet that does work) - it must be performing NAT - Why not allow us to leverage the ability of the built in 802.11b stack by allowing the creation of an ad-hoc network and installation of a DHCP server on the device? Can this be done manually in any ip configuration way? Currently all wifi-sharing implementations out there involve using a java socks proxy. Wallah, instant wifi hotspot.
Anonymous
May 08, 2007
I dread to think how many sales have been lost because of this one issue - I know at least 9 people who have decided against a WM Smartphone because they needed a phone that supported the BT DUN profile. So they bought Nokia/SonyEricsson instead. Making BT DUN a non-default option was just asking the OEMs or carriers to drop this feature - hiding behind this argument is disengenuous at best. As already stated, Microsoft should not drop a feature until the feature is at Death's door - in this case you effectively dropped the feature by making it non-default, yet BT DUN is by far the most common form of inter-device connectivity. OEMs and carriers will take their lead from Microsoft in most cases, and if they see you have made an option non-default and are telling them "the future is ICS" then the OEMs and carriers are not going to enable the feature and spend more time testing what they are being told is a legacy feature. Let this be a lesson to you - don't make a feature a non-default option until it's truly dead.
Anonymous
May 10, 2007
I have tomtom go device which only supports DUN. Paying tomtom 40€ a year for traffic service and my phone carrier 10€ a month for data connection. Thanks to Microsoft that i can not use this service anymore with my new WM5 device, but still paying it... When will be an uptate availible to add BT DUN again?
Anonymous
May 11, 2007
So come on, tell us when you can get this back. Even better, we users out here are really hurting and losing money everyday because of this. What we really need are instructions to add this back, or even better, a cab file that automatically adds this back to our phones that can be run from Extended_ROM so that even if we have to hard rest, or upgrade our OS again it will be applied. Why can't Microsoft offer this kind of patch support to its paying users. Any other software company would support their software in this way. LJ
Anonymous
May 14, 2007
I am not seeing many answers to how TomTom users will be able to function going forward. TomTom has a product placement in the millions globally are RELY on Bluetooth DUN connections for it's services. I have a TomTom910, a product that is less than 6 months old in the market place and yet my new phone doesn't support Bluetooth DUN... that is just bizarre!! There is no support from TomTom on this one, and no answer from MS? Who owns this issue, and how are the millions of TomTom service customers going to justify the purchase of a new phone when it won't support their existing device... If you ask me WM6 and WM5 AKU3 are already potential revenue losers in the market place, or at least the uptake will be much slower that anticipated. Regards, Andrew
Anonymous
May 14, 2007
... just so you guys know, I had my team send back the 18 devices we had in for QA for a full refund from the reseller due to this issue. I'm sure we are not the only global corporate who has product road maps and compatibility governance...
Anonymous
May 21, 2007
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Anonymous
May 24, 2007
Microsoft have really messed up here by removing the DUN profile arbitrarily! My Sat Nav is currently useless for communication with my new phone because of this, so now I'm going to have to return the Windows Mobile phone and go for something else, probably Symbian based because the latest one still supports Bluetooth DUN! Looks like they've gone silent and there's no fix in the works too.
Anonymous
May 24, 2007
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Anonymous
May 25, 2007
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Anonymous
May 25, 2007
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Anonymous
May 25, 2007
I do agree with "LJinFLA". If BT DUN is present and disabled, why not help the users turn it on?
Anonymous
May 27, 2007
Like other i have a TomTom 910 and i'll probabilly buy a symbian smartphone to use with. Tank a lot MS !
Anonymous
May 28, 2007
I can't get Internet Sharing to work on my HTC 3125 I just upgraded. With USB the 3125 connects and I see an interface on my PC waiting for an IP address. It never gets an IP address. With BT PAN it connects but without an IP. My 3125 wont' give me an IP address!!!!
Anonymous
May 28, 2007
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Anonymous
May 28, 2007
WM users are a tough crowd. Once I got ICS to work between my Dash and my Mac, I was really happy. It is a little disconcerting to think that if I choose to upgrade my WM to WM6, I might actually switch to a lower quality protocol! It might not happen -- since T-Mobile uses GPRS, and that may not require dial-up as such... But would it be so rotten an idea to put both options on the CD-ROM and let users install the one they want if they do not like the options selected by their carrier?
Anonymous
May 29, 2007
MS - We need to know if a solution is possible or not. If it is not possible, then what's stopping it - and if it is possible then how soon ?
Anonymous
June 01, 2007
That's it. I made a switch to a different phone. WM5 is gone now - for good. Will never ever buy one again. Will make sure to notify BT DUN users (family/friends) about WM5's lack of support. The response over here damaged MS's good image that I once had. MS - You cannot dictate as to what technology I am supposed to use. You just cannot do it. I am at a loss now, but will make sure that people around me will not be in the future.
Anonymous
June 01, 2007
extro, I'm sorry to see you go. I hope your new phone meets your needs. Mike
Anonymous
June 01, 2007
Mike, I did not mean to be harsh, but trust me, the experience has been very frustrating. I am required to travel a lot and I use the GPS as a hands free device.
Anonymous
June 01, 2007
We've heard loud and clear the message that people want to keep DUN. And, as was said before, we had already decided to make it a default again before this thread was started. I would like to know more about your situation, though. Did you have a WM5 device that had BTH DUN in it, and then upgraded to WM5 AKU3? Or did you buy a new AKU3-based WM5 device only to find that it didn't have DUN? Mike
Anonymous
June 01, 2007
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Anonymous
June 01, 2007
The solution we'd LIKE to do is bundle up BT DUN into an end user installable and give it to you. Unfortunately, that's not something we can do. We have partners who specifically remove DUN support. If we were to just put an installable on our web site somewhere, we'd be subverting our own partners. That's a good way to stop having partners. Cingular and Samsung, however, have the ability to solve the problem for you. Remember that we still ship DUN to the OEMs. We just stopped making it be in by default. If they want to put it in, we're all for them doing so. So, conceptually, Cingular or Samsung could release either an updated ROM with DUN in it, or they could release a means for you to install just the DUN componet yourself. If they ask us for help doing either of those things, we'll help them. Mike
Anonymous
June 02, 2007
Thanks so much Mike. In my opinion the request should now go to companies like Cingular instead of Samsung. Because Samsung devices are not the only ones affected. I shall consult Cingular from my side and do all that is possible. If needed I might have to link Cingular to this post. Thanks again.
Anonymous
June 04, 2007
Mike and Greg - thanks for addressing the DUN topic. As for me, I was very happy to find out that ICS and the OSX update made it easy to connect my MacBook Pro to my Dopod D810 (HTC Trinity) which has HSDPA service. However, I agree with one or two other posts that having to Initiate on one and Confirm on the other is a bit of a nuisance, especially since I had to go through the process of pairing them in the first place, so you would think that the PC should be able to direct the phone to connect. Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but is there any likelihood that some sort of one-way initiated connection could be possible at some point using the PAN?
Anonymous
June 04, 2007
The only think that I don't like about ICS is that I can't connect to my work computer via VPN. Using Cisco VPN 5.0 I can't connect to the work network but I can't see any network's computers. I use remote desktop and I got an error "Computer not found".
Anonymous
June 06, 2007
Mike, I did contact Cingular and Samsung and they were not of help. When I say Bluetooth DUN, they are asking me to turn Bluetooth ON in the settings. Ofcourse Bluetooth was ON all the while. After about 1 hour, they diverted me to Samsung Level 1 support and when even they could not answer, they connected me to Samsung Level 2 support. Samsung Level 2 guy would not understand my question and would not give me a Level 3 number. They tell me that they dont have a direct number and I dont believe that. I spent nearly 2 worthless hours on the phone. Will it be possible for your team to initiate a connection through your partners by diverting them to this post?
Anonymous
June 06, 2007
I have the same issue than Gilberto Fres. I can't connect to my work computer via VPN. Using Cisco VPN 5.0 I can connect to the VPN gateway(tunnel is up) but there is no traffic. So i'm looking for an older rom for a tytyn which contain old (but running) Wmodem. If you got an idea I really appreciate you share it.
Anonymous
June 07, 2007
Finally with an upgrade to WM6, VPN tunnel is up and traffic ok.
Anonymous
June 08, 2007
Absolutely agree with the comments - I have a TomTom Rider (the motorbike version) with Traffic etc, upgraded to AKU3 - and no DUN Even if TomTom supported ICS how on earth am I going to turn it on while I'm riding my motorbike !!!
Anonymous
June 08, 2007
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Anonymous
June 08, 2007
By the way, notice the last sentence in that quote - ICS in not officialy supported.
Anonymous
June 10, 2007
Working is a Support Centre for a manufacturer of Windows Mobile devices, and having one myself, I have seen both sides of this. Personally I use my handset as a network link regularly. As a user experience I believe that ICS is much "better". It is fater, easier to use and seems more reliable. DUN also has is good features, allowing extra useability. How ever with DUN you need to setup a connection, have the details from you network and spend time on it. Then you find it is not connecting and that you need to call support. From the support side of things, modem connection calls have halved in number and also in length for ICS compared to DUN. So from this I can see why the OEM's have opted for ICS over DUN. But then from a support engineer's point of view I am torn. Yes customers have a simpler user experience, have less need to call support, but then some customer and systems require DUN. Many VPN systems authenticate a PC from it's IP address, where as on ICS, it is the device with the IP, not the PC. Hence a user can no longer log into their comapny VPN. ICS is definately a good thing, and the way for the future, but should not be forced onto customers and compaines overnight. They should be aloowed to "play" with the new technology and delvelop their understanding and systems over time.
Anonymous
June 11, 2007
Oh great. Just bought a new WM6 phone and now I find I can't use it with my TomTom because MS has decided not to install DUN by default. Why not just include both by default? Are you saying the two technologies cannot co-exist on the same device? Why not let us decide which technology to use? Why, because MS has yet again failed to understand the impact of a 'useability' decision. Then to say its the service providers fault for not adding DUN is grossly unfair. They DIDN'T HAVE TO install it before so why would they intentionally add it now. It's your operating system, take some responsibility for it and your mistakes! Remember, its not the fact that you make mistakes that costs you customers, its the way you fail to put your mistakes right! Situations like this are a golden opportunity to get customers on your side! Sorry for the rant folks but I, like many others here, am sick of this!
Anonymous
June 11, 2007
MikeCal said: ~~ That's a good way to stop having partners.

But the present way will make you (WM) stop having customers. It is currently disabled on my phone because MS wanted to disable it - the way I understand. Samsung and Cingular will not help. If customers are any important, I am sure you (WM) will figure a way out. Did MS fail to observe that BT could be used in more ways that it assumes people use it?

Anonymous
June 11, 2007
I'm jaw dropped. This is the most ridiculous decision Microsoft has yet to make. MikeCal, your comment to simply nudge our carriers to issue a fix is a sad deterrent from the real situation --- Microsoft and some carriers want to team up to put us, the clientelle, into helpless situations that will eventually require us to upgrade, spend money for "premium services", and re-enforce your position as the capitalistic power dog. Our carriers don't listen to us. And you respond by saying that this is out of Microsoft's control. Absolute garbage! Can't you see that we're all helpless? Send us a fix and get it over with. Talk kindly with your partners and show them how we're all suffering. Show them how THEY will be losing their customers. If your partners still refuse to allow you to issue a fix, then are these really partners you want affecting your business? Do you really want these partners affecting your fate? They're reflecting poorly on Microsoft (assuming this is out of Microsoft's "control"). I've defended Microsoft for many years against UNIX and OSX fan boys for years. I've about had it though. If this doesn't get remedied soon, or at least a reasonable announcement of when it will be remedied, I'm finished with PocketPC and WM devices. Kevin
Anonymous
June 12, 2007
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Anonymous
June 12, 2007
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Anonymous
June 13, 2007
Chucki, I do understand that individual end users have little chance of changing the mobile operators policy. But I'm serious when I say that they have a greater chance than Microsoft does. We're constantly telling them what we think they should do. I'm pretty sure we've even talked to them about this particular issue. But if what we want and what they want are in conflict, they'll win every time. As an end user, you've got to do what works best for you. I'd personally prefer that you stay with WM. But, if we don't meet your needs and something else does, then you should get the device that meets your needs. If you do switch, I hope you give us another chance on your next device. Before you switch, though, make sure that what you're switching to doesn't have the same problem. Remember that the reason we can't give you a CAB file is that some MOs refuse to let their users have DUN. If your MO is one of these, then the non-WM alternatives won't have DUN either. Mike
Anonymous
June 13, 2007
I love the new PAN instead of DUN with this significant exception: What I immediately noticed with the updated ROM for my HTC Hermes TyTn (Cingular 8525 on AT&T) upon using Bluetooth PAN via Internet Sharing my bandwidth dropped significantly. When using BT DUN I was getting between 800 and 1Mb download speeds, but with the BT PAN I'm only getting 380k. Since the update, when I use a bandwidth meter from IE on the phone I get 1Mb or better. But turn on the BT PAN and connect the laptop and I get 380k or 420k every time. Is the bandwidth now throttled? Is there a way to get it back up to proper speed? Here is a quote confirming what I'm talking about from the TyTn discussion forum and there has not been a solution presented yet: I have two 8525 devices and tested them both before and after the upgrade. Before the upgrade, both devices would sustain 1mbps speeds performing a tethered download of MSVPC 2007 from Microsoft's website (approx 122kb / sec) After I upgraded the first one, the tethered speed fell to no more than 380kbps (approx 46kb / sec). Here's the kicker -- the second device, six inches from the first, was still downloading at ~122kb /sec. After its upgrade, it too fell to around 45kb / sec. So what gives? One of the reasons I bought this phone was for the broadband tethering and since the update, it's 75% gone. -Neil
Anonymous
June 13, 2007
I also immediately noticed that upon using BT PAN/ICS/Internet Sharing, whatever you want to call it, I was not able to connect to the company VPN. However, I immediately rectified the problem by changing the phone's PAN IP subnet. MS, please don't use 192.168.0.x for the PAN network. Or at least give us a place to change it without hacking the phone. Looking forward to another update, -Neil
Anonymous
June 14, 2007
I am not sure if the comments are being moderated.
Anonymous
June 14, 2007
I entered a long comment some time back about my experience with AT&T customer service and it never appeared. Anyways, the summary is that it did not work and they have no clue what I am talking about.
Anonymous
June 14, 2007
extro, the comments aren't moderated, but we're inundated with comment spam, so the something in your comment might have set off the spam filter. That said, there's a comment from you on June 6th describing your experiences. Is that the one, or was there another? If there was another, was it near that date? I can go look to see if it got unpublished but not deleted and readd it if so. Mike
Anonymous
June 14, 2007
I entered a comment this morning. (06/14). 06/06 comment related to the previous experience with Cingular. I tried two times. They have no clue what I am talking about. I just asked them to reach MS and ask for a .cab file. But their response was way out of sync with the issue.

extro.

Anonymous
June 14, 2007
I see 3 comments from you on 6/14, and all are posted. On 6/6 there was one that was posted. That day was a particularly heavy one for Spam, but I only saw your one message and no others. Ironically, one of my posts was marked as spam from that day, though. If you had a second message on that date, I'm sorry but it appears that it got deleted. MIke
Anonymous
June 14, 2007
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Anonymous
June 14, 2007
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Anonymous
June 14, 2007
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Anonymous
June 17, 2007
(Sad...) Now, with my HTC S620 ($400+) WM5,I can't Bluetooth connect to my TomTom go910 GPS ($500+)(Bluetooth PAN not supported)and my $40+ (traffic & weather data) yearly subscription is useless... (Sad again...)
Anonymous
June 25, 2007
I've tried three different ways to get an answer from my carrier on this, and I have failed dismally to have them even understand the issue, let alone care enough to respond. Some of my legacy devices need DUN; (sure my newer ones can use PAN) so it's the older ones which require DUN (e.g. TomTom GO). I'm not about to throw them all out, so the simple solution for me is that Windows Mobile has ruled itself out of consideration for my next phone.
Anonymous
June 26, 2007
My problem is solved. Guess who helped? Neither Microsoft, neither Cingular nor Samsung. Garmin helped. Downloaded a Bluetooth firmware update. Worked. I would advice you all (similar) WM5 users to knock the doors of such companies. This would be the last that I would deal with MS. Thereby not jeopardizing my future ($) investments on other gadgets. I want to decide the technology that I will be using.
Anonymous
June 27, 2007
I too am having issues connecting to a Cisco VPN. I can get the tunnel up but I'm having issue getting RDP connections to work. I've done bandwidth testing between the two connection types and they both seem to do about the same on my phone. Keep in mind my device isn't "supposed" to be running AKU3.5 We've kinda had to build the OS ourselves but its working quite well considering!
Anonymous
June 27, 2007
The gentleman who fixed his problem by changing the netmask... What did you do? just open it up? 0.0.0.0? What exactly was the idea there?
Anonymous
June 27, 2007
I have a fairly simple question. I just got Windows Vista Premium Home edition. Ive got my WMA5 Device(O2 Atom Exec) syncing with my emails, contacts etc via bluetooth but HOW HOW HOW do i get my laptop go online using DUN or anything other thing VIA WM5. Basically i want to have GPRS connecivity on my laptop thru my WM5 Via Bluetooth.. PLEASE HELP.Someone.....Anyone.
Anonymous
June 27, 2007
Perhaps we should change the title of this thread to:- "Why haven't Microsoft done anything to replace Bluetooth DUN to get its mobile customers back on side?" Oh I know, because the answer is too obvious: - BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T CARE LESS!! P.S. WM6 phone going on ebay this afternoon, good luck to the poor person that buys it.
Anonymous
June 28, 2007
I bought a very nice MDA Verio 2 from T-mobile, but unfortunately had to return it after discovering that Windows Mobile on it didn't support the Bluetooth DUN profile so I could use my TomTom Sat Nav unit. Swapped it for a N95 with Symbian which supported Bluetooth DUN! I recommend this OS if you need this functionality.
Anonymous
June 28, 2007
At the very least if you're not going to provide a BT DUN functionality why not at least forward RDP and VPN connections through so that the product you DO have is useful to business customers!
Anonymous
June 29, 2007
talked to htc: they did not understand what i was talking about, send me to vodafone talked to vodafone: they did not understand what i was talking about, after 10 minutes they hand me over to a software engineer who is customizing operating systems for vodafone --> the did not even realize that DUN was disabeled, i send him the linkt to that threat, he told me than that they are actually testing wm6 and that DUN is not part of it either, he told me that he could not solve my problem because he does not have a cab file with an installation tomtom support was very bad. i was asking for an bluetooth update to PAN. i was never getting an answer.
Anonymous
June 30, 2007
I've been keeping an eye on this thread for a while, and ms bashing, whilst fun, isn't helping to solve our problem. I bought (SIM free) an HTC S710 (WM6) as soon as it was available and like many other am immensely frustrated with the removal of DUN as I can no longer get traffic updates via my Tomtom 910. I understand that Microsoft may be unable to issue a CAB due to carrier objections. My frustration is not so much with ms (they've acknowledged their mistake and will be putting DUN back) - who I'm really annoyed with are HTC and Tomtom. I contacted Tomtom to ask whether they'd be issuing an update to add ICS support and their response was 'he information you have requested is currently unavailable.'! I contacted HTC asking whether they could supply an update to provide DUN on the S710 - HTC never even responded! Does anyone on this thread have more direct access into these organisations? Anyone heard any news of whether either takes this problem seriously?
Anonymous
July 03, 2007
I just purchased a brand new HP IPAQ 510 smartphone, with WM6, to work with my brand-new TOMTOM GO. I actually called TOMTOM in advance, and asked them if these models were compatable. The TOMTOM support reps were non-commital, stating that the model was not on their supproted list, but I could try it. I purchased the phone, and predictably, after spending a week to get them to work together, I finally gave up. I "donated" my WM6 smartphone to my son, and began using my TOMTOM with an old Motorola L7 SLVR that my son had. (Boy, did my son get a great early birthday present!) Really, MS, please fix this. Please put the DUN capabilities back in WM6. All the phones that are on the supported TOMTOM list now are old, junky ones, with no Smartphone capabilities. I don't want to have to use this old L7 with my TOMTOM for the next 5 years.
Anonymous
July 03, 2007
I got TomTom working on my Dash.i use an external bluetooth GPS device. I basically had to edit the registry. I used the following instructions for using Google Maps to enable TomTom to work with my bluetooth GPS http://www.htcwiki.com/page/Configure+Smartphone+for+Google+Mobile+Maps+with+Bluetooth+GPS?t=anon
Anonymous
July 08, 2007
Now my pocket pc is almost useless without since I cannot use my WM6 (dopod c730) phone to get online !
Anonymous
July 09, 2007
Anyone else here infuriated by the way MS can accept responsibility for their mistakes with the XBOX and actually do something about it, but yet seem completely unwilling to do anything similar for WM6?? http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2007/07/05/warrantyrelease.aspx Sigh
Anonymous
July 09, 2007
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Anonymous
July 10, 2007
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Anonymous
July 10, 2007
Guys, I found a solution to the missing DUN for WM5/6 phones! I use a app called USB Modem by a developer called 'Mobile Stream' http://www.mobile-stream.com/usbmodem_wm.html gets the job done..for my HTC s720 WM6 and my Macbook Pro.. via Bluetooth connection....and yes indeed it does USB phone as modem and transfers. cheers! 14days trial or 30 connects...
Anonymous
July 18, 2007
Has anybody got a Vodafone v1415 talking to a TomTom yet? Read all the stuff and am really frustrated. think I'll have to get my P900 repaired now! Cheers
Anonymous
July 18, 2007
Hey Neil - How do you change my PAN subnet IP? I have the same problem with my work VPN. It connects but no data transfer. Thanks!
Anonymous
July 20, 2007
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Anonymous
July 20, 2007
Neil, Thank you very much for supplying those instructions. You are correct, this is probably not the best location to be discussing tweaks. I would appreciate a way to contact you or if you would be so kind as to start a thread somewhere else where we can discuss this further. I was hoping you could elaborate a little on how you were able to connect to VPN over the BT PAN. I have followed your instructions above, but I am unsure WHAT I should change the "Router IP" to. I tried a few different values but what I'm noticing is that once I connect to VPN, my laptop's "Default Gateway" disappears. When I disconnect VPN and I am able to access the internet again. Again, probably not the place to discuss this, but would appreciate a few minutes of your time to help with this. I'm sure there are others out there that would benefit from this. Thank you, Phil
Anonymous
July 23, 2007
Please fix this, the fate of the world depends upon people being able to access travel updates for their TomTom through their Blackjacks.
Anonymous
July 23, 2007
2all: Hi, is there any solution how to enable BT DUN on Samsung i600? PAN in i600 is not working with Broadcom PAN and old MS WM5 don't have PAN integrated, so I am not able to connect my Fujitsu Siemens N560 PocketPC with my new cell phone! Is there any patch available (beta testing?) to enable DUN on WM5 AKU3 for smartphones? Thanks
Anonymous
July 24, 2007
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Anonymous
July 26, 2007
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Anonymous
July 29, 2007
Guys and gals, as one of the guys that made this happen, let me present you all a REAL, working, free - as opposed to the USB Modem linked above, which, the last time I checked (see my related article) did NOT work at least on Pocket PC's - solution! Read http://www.pocketpcmag.com/blogs/index.php?blog=3&p=2121&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 for a complete tutorial & compatibility remarks.
Anonymous
August 02, 2007
I use a TomTom One device. With my previous phone (SPV C600) it works fine. With my new HP 514 it does not. Your article explains why but to say I'm a LITTLE frustrated woudl be a horrible understatement. I cannot get any data feeds onto my TomTom device now like traffic services etc... Please release something I can simply install onto my new device to get this back again - and SOOOOOON!!!! Cheers Craig
Anonymous
August 03, 2007
I am not going to say I am the most technological person on the planet. But using my bluetooth with my headset was easy...it searches for the device, it finds it, I use it. Case closed. I bought one of those new-fangled GPS navigation systems, a TomTom v.4 to be exact, and it finds my phone, even knows the model no. but cannot connect to it. My phone, too, recognizes the TomTom and after I reply YES to Connect with TomTom, it says.."searching for service list for tomTom v.4" and it ends about there.Am I punching in the manual info wrong? Is my phone just not compatible with the GPS system? Am I lost somewhere between technology and chaos? Don't answer that...but please, if you have any suggestions or information on how I can connect these two indispensible devices, please let me know.
Anonymous
August 04, 2007
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Anonymous
August 07, 2007
All I know is that my nokia 770 and my cingular 8525 worked together perfectly fine, until I upgraded to WM6. MS says don't blame us blame the carrier, the carrier, cingular at least, has no clue what MS is talking about. It seems pretty clear to me that many people have wasted their valuable time on this completely avoidable issue either due to the actions of MS or inaction of Cingular. The question is who will accept responsibility first and find ways to remedy the situation. I know one thing for sure as more and more people suffer after upgrading to wm6, there will be more and more lawyers out there chomping at the bit to go after these 2 giants.
Anonymous
August 07, 2007
I've never used DUN cause I just recently bought Cingular 8525 with the latest ROM so it already had Internet Sharing feature which was easy to use to connect my laptop to internet via usb. But the question is how to get it to work using Bluetooth. I successfully connected smartphone and my PC via PAN but still can not surf internet. Can someone explain how to do it, please? thanks.
Anonymous
August 12, 2007
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Anonymous
August 13, 2007
Kevin, I'm sorry we let you down, and I sincerely hope your new phone meets your needs. Please don't interpret my not knowing the ins and outs of every conversation Microsoft has had as an indication that no one here remembers what we've talked about. I'm one guy, and I didn't participate in those conversations. I don't know everything done by everyone here. That said, if I'm giving the impression that the company doesn't pay attention to its customers, I'll be more careful in what I say in the future. I am curious, though. It's my understanding that the iPhone doesn't support DUN. Is my understanding incorrect? If you left us because we temporarily removed support for DUN, why didn't you go to a phone that DOES support it? Mike
Anonymous
August 15, 2007
PAN and ICS may be the way ahead, but there are an awful lot of devices out there that still need good old DUN. Having flexibility on your type of connections is why people buy WM5/6 devices. Making this an optional item for vendors to install means joe public will have to do a lot of searching around to enable what is essentially a supported function of the OS. Think both MS and the device manufacturers should have made this clear on their marketing materials. I know the vendor who made my phone claimed DUN OS support despite it not being enabled. Hope the commitee that decided to pull DUN don't get put in charge of anything important anytime soon e.g. airbags or brakes on cars....the airbags are there, we just decided to let the dealers decide if they switch them on or not :)
Anonymous
August 20, 2007
We have asked Orange if they can give us the cab file to enable DUN and the response was "Our initial understanding was that it was not possible to implement BT DUN with a separate cab file as it would conflict with the o/s which, as you say, now has ICS built in instead of DUN" So it looks as though they wont supply me with a way to do this :(
Anonymous
August 21, 2007
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Anonymous
August 22, 2007
Please let us know if you get anywhere Chris. Thanks.
Anonymous
August 23, 2007
Blaming it on OEM's sound a tad like passing the buck to other companies. I had a large rant at Orange because my replacement phone came with the new ROM (Without DUN) which has rendered my TOMTOM useless for the Plus services. Orange say they cannot supply the old ROM and that you need to speak to Microsoft. Microsoft say it's up to the OEM to supply. What are we supposed to do when they just blame each other?
Anonymous
August 23, 2007
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Anonymous
August 24, 2007
Well sorry Orange customers/users, no hope for us i'm afraid. Reply from Orange below. "Well after a glimmer of hope, unfortunately the answer that has now come back is that it would not be possible to provide just a .cab file for this upgrade as there would need to be some connection changes made by Microsoft / HTC in the ROM. As we only want to have one supported software build, I'm told that this would obviously not be something that could be done without impacting the core build that everyone would get and hence is not something we really want to entertain. The stance seems definately to be that ICS is the way forward and MS will not be going back to DUN , so it would seem the way forward would be to investigate an ICS implementation that helps the customer achieve what their DUN setup used to give them."
Anonymous
August 24, 2007
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Anonymous
August 25, 2007
I was about to despair of ever using TomTom traffic and weather with my Mobile 6 device (HTC Hermes/O2 XDA-Trion) and then I found this: http://www.pocketpcmag.com/blogs/index.php?blog=3&p=2121&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 which worked perfectly first time.
Anonymous
August 25, 2007
Shane, what you've been told by Orange ("Our initial understanding was that it was not possible to implement BT DUN with a separate cab file as it would conflict with the o/s which, as you say, now has ICS built in instead of DUN") is, to state it mildly, far from the truth. BT DUN and PAN-based dial up DOES co-exist. The Orange folks seem not to have a clue about what they speak about. See my related tutorial on re-enabling DUN on WM5 AKU3+ / WM6 Pocket PC's.
Anonymous
September 04, 2007
Upgraded my HTC S620 to WM6. DUN patch applied. BT connection fully functional with my TomTom Go910. Thanks to HTC and XDA-Developpers folks! No greeting to Microsoft.
Anonymous
September 12, 2007
MS May want to work with TomTom then to get their devices to work with . ALL of their Nav Devices use BT DUN to get internet connections for traffic updates, weather, camera data, buddy list, etc. The same is true for those with older Garmin, NavMan and other in-car Nav Devices for those of us who don't want to buy software to use on a smaller screen.
Anonymous
September 13, 2007
先日、新宿西口のヨドバシに買物に行ったときに発見したのがコレ。プリンストンテクノ...
Anonymous
September 20, 2007
This is really frustrating. I have a great new phone (iPAQ914) and cannot use it for traffic information on my TomTom 700 where I had to pay annually to get the function. Why doesn't Microsoft supply the DUN patch as a download that people can directly add to their phones to resolve this problem. Rather than this approach 'if the OEMs want'? This would resolve a known customer issue and be seen as a very positive response to customer feedback
Anonymous
September 22, 2007
Unfortunately my Thinkpad T42p shows the network access point on my WM6 Bell HTC 6800, but fails with error 0x81000015 when I try to connect. Worked perfectly with my old Audiovox 6600 with WM2k3 and DUN. I realize the problem is on the Windows side. Lenovo driver updates and Windows update doesn't solve the problem. Sure wish the OEMs would've included DUN for one more generation. Or provide as the previous poster suggests, a downloadable patch. Billyware -> better is the bloated enemy of good.
Anonymous
September 23, 2007
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Anonymous
September 24, 2007
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Anonymous
September 26, 2007
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Anonymous
September 27, 2007
I've just published an article on sharing the dial-up connection via Wi-Fi on Pocket PC Phone Edition (WM Professional) devices. See http://www.pocketpcmag.com/blogs/index.php?blog=3&p=2207&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 for more info.
Anonymous
September 27, 2007
Transfxb, you mean you've made the DUN patch working on the S620 (a Smartphone)?
Anonymous
September 28, 2007
I have gone to the site recomended by Mr Werner and i am sure it would work but i have no idea how to install it on my pocket pc. can any one expalin it using a few more words please
Anonymous
September 30, 2007
Brian, you mean the BT DUN patch? Did you manage to import the Registry file? If you don't know how it's done, download the trial version of Resco File Explorer and install it; making sure you also enable its Registry Editor module. Start the latter at least once. Now, transfer the REG file I've provided to anywhere on your handheld and click it from File Explorer. It'll be imported.
Anonymous
September 30, 2007
スリムでありながら、そこそこ打てるキーボード、従来のW-ZERO3[es]（WS...
Anonymous
October 01, 2007
Yes Werner, I have upgraded first my HTC S620 Smartphone to WM6 (official ROM from HTC) and then applied WM6_BT_DUN.cab found on XDAdev... And it works like a charm :)
Anonymous
October 02, 2007
Guys and gals, I've posted brand new, updated versions of both tutorials explaining how you can use dial-up over both BT DUN and Wi-Fi. I've also elaborated on WM6_BT_DUN.cab mentioned by TransfXB. The new way is much easier to be installed - you, basically, only need to install a single CAB file. NO registry importing, file copying etc. needed.
Anonymous
October 03, 2007
We want the Modem Link back on WM6 ! Internet Sharing needs Active Sync 4.5+ in order to work. USB conenction via Modem Link does need only the modem drivers, no need to install active sync .. so it's better when you want to use a PC without installing active sync, just the modem driver.. It's good to have them both. Thanks.
Anonymous
October 04, 2007
don't forget to check out the CAB file posten on by blog. It fixes your problems.
Anonymous
October 09, 2007
I've just posted a step-by-step tutorial of another huge enhancement: BT PAN without an active Internet Sharing, with several clients connecting at the same time. See my blog.
Anonymous
October 11, 2007
Why does Microsoft insist on removing features with every new release? (cf. ActiveSync etc...)
Anonymous
October 12, 2007
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Anonymous
October 12, 2007
"that one is still in the product, just off by default" Some questions:

Why did you title this blog post "Why did we remove Bluetooth DUN?" if BT DUN is not actually removed?
"...just off by default" How do we turn it ON? we NEED this feature to operate some very recent devices. One comment: BT SPAN is probably a "superior alternative" to BT DUN as far as one doesn't need BT DUN. And, in this case, it is way incorrect to say that "an extremely small number of customers are using the feature".

Anonymous
October 22, 2007
Removing DUN is a sure way to disrupt many working setups. Why no one thought a little bit about this before making the decision? A lot of trouble could have been saved with so little work... There is another scenario where this causes trouble and MS is the one to blame, because if MS only give us ICS and no BT PAN Client profile to connect to it, how are we expected to connect to the Internet with their own OS now? I have a WM 5 PocketPC (not Phone Edition) and a WM 6 Phone Edition. I only have ICS on the Phone Edition (no DUN), but the WM 5 Pocket PC doesn't have PAN Client capabilities. And this is with two devices working with Windows Mobile. Frustrating. My old WM 5 Phone Edition had a DUN profile that the PocketPC could use. Is WM 6 a step forward in connectivity? XDA-Devs to the rescue! (they should be paid for their work. Really. MS could consider some sort of collaboration with them, like beta testing new AKUs or something.)
Anonymous
October 29, 2007
Hey Werner - read your blog on making BT DUN work on WM6 - you say you got it to work on an HTC s710 using the "all in one CAB"....HOW? tried it numerous times on my s710 and no DUN services are showing up.
Anonymous
October 31, 2007
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Anonymous
November 02, 2007
Simon, dunno - T-Mo my have messed up the device. Is it app locked? If it is, make sure you remove the app lock. Don't be afraid, it's legal and has nothing to do with SIM locking.
Anonymous
November 02, 2007
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Anonymous
November 07, 2007
I have to say removing DUN stack is one of the most foolish decision that was able to be devised. No matter how cool the Internet Sharing works, it is not "Standard Format." Your team have to realize that there are so many products out side of the Microsoft using DUN stack that customer using right now, and there is no upgrade for those kind of gadgets. Compatibility and connectivity is more important than coolness.
Anonymous
November 08, 2007
I tried to use my TomTom Go with my WM6 phone (Hermes HTC100 recently upgraded) and was also disappointed to find the lack of DUN support, since that is the only way I could possibly get the online updates to work. Without that, no go. Shame.
Anonymous
November 14, 2007
Hi Greg, I think ICS is a very interesting step forward. Thank You for the information. Could You please contact me by mail: jean_pierre.buttet@smartdata.ch Thank You in advance. Best regards.
Anonymous
November 22, 2007
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Anonymous
November 22, 2007
Simon, thanks for reporting back; I also include this info (must be app unlocked) in the tutorial.
Anonymous
November 22, 2007
Understood Werner - my fault for mis-understanding the difference between a locked phone (to carrier) and 'App locked' phone (registry by carrier) all sorted now.
Anonymous
December 07, 2007
After I applied the BT_DUN.CAB on my HTC Wing, how do I set up my Nokia N800 to work with it? it gives me an error with connection or something. Is there settings on the phone (eg. number to dial, etc) or on the N800? Thanks
Anonymous
December 07, 2007
Oh, I forgot to mention in the above post that I'm using tmobile with the 5.99 tmobile web.
Anonymous
January 04, 2008
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Anonymous
January 04, 2008
I found your article after almost 24 hours non-stop searching on the web. So, first, I wish some of the key information such as DUN is now included in the OEM, should be included in the help notes. I use DUN for outlook SMS application. I spend $500 to buy this HTC P3300 device and I have been searching for the modem link or modem driver for long time. I am sure there are other folks out there to use the DUN on the PC for cell phone text messaging purpose. I will now look into the OEM files for the Modem Link. Please don't forget there are other users like me to use DUN in a way that you have never throught about. (MOSA users)
Anonymous
January 09, 2008
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Anonymous
January 16, 2008
I have just installed the WM6_DUN cab and on my macbook (OSX leopard) finally can see a DUN service when pairing this is great and the only problem now is I set up vodafone settings username: web password: web and dial number either "internet" (which worked on my WM6 TREO) or *99# which vodafone tld me to use when usb tethering, the *99# and testing a few different modem scripts gets the connection to "authenticating" when dialling but then it cuts off and I'm back to square one. any ideas....from a desparate man (i don't want to give up my new tilt but at the moment the old treo's looking pretty reliable)
Anonymous
January 21, 2008
About 2 years ago I could Activesync my Outlook PC with a Windows Mobile PDA/phone via WiFi. I found this particularly useful on my home network, and it was fast and reliable. Now, with MWM 6.0 and Activesync 4.5, I can see no way to do this. Is there a way? Secondly, the removal of BT DUN renders my TomTom data subscriptions pointless, as I can no longer connect my TomTom GPS to the TomTom server via my WM PDA/phone. Thanks a bunch.
Anonymous
January 25, 2008
Internet Sharing is a pain to use. I used to be able to just dial up to the Internet without ever touching my phone. Now, I have to dig out my phone and set it up so that I can connect. If you want to keep the Internet Sharing, make it automated. Mike HTC 8525 and Tilt owner
Anonymous
February 13, 2008
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Anonymous
March 03, 2008
Where is the PAN client for WM6? If this is all in support of new technology, how can I get a WM6 device to connect to another WM6 device via PAN?
Anonymous
March 15, 2008
Internet Sharing is a great idea...but it appears that Verizon has removed it from the standard install - and likely removed the ability to connect via BT DUN as well. Sad.
Anonymous
March 31, 2008
DUN doesn't strictly require access to the radio or cooperation from the telco. It can be virtualized on top of your regular connection, just like PAN is. I have a little linux access point that does this. It connects to the internet through a verizon usb adapter and shares the connection both over PAN (using pand) and DUN (using dund) at the same time. Maybe it wouldn't be worth the effort to make DUN virtualized since you don't already have something like linux dund, but it is possible.
Anonymous
April 03, 2008
I used the Modem Link and/or BT DUN to dial analog modems. In my field, I support many devices that use analog POTS modems for remote support. I have upgraded to a device that uses WM6, and can no longer use my smartphone to access these analog modems. I have noticed that I can add dial-up connections in settings->connections, then set the added dial-up connection as the 'Network Connection' in Internet Sharing. When I then try to connect, it establishes an IP connection with my laptop, and appears to dial the analog modem. But the connection never establishes. However, even if it did, I don't know how this would work since the laptop and modem connections would be on different subnets.
Anonymous
April 12, 2008
I'm completely disappointed by the choice to remove DUN. I have a Sprint HTC Touch and it is really hampering my use of the phone and plan that I'm paying for by not being able to use with my PAN-less devices, including my Linux computer. Shame on Microsoft.
Anonymous
May 07, 2008
Yes, with PAN profile your phone acts as a WIFI router. BUT sometimes we do NOT need a WIFI router. Sometimes we need to get an IP provided directly from the operator's DHCP. Sometimes we don't need NAT. Is there a chance that you stop thinking instead of the customers and start doing what the customers want ? Tell me - what is the effort to leave the DUN profile hidden ( and possibly activated when needed by a registry key ) instead of removing it completely ? Windows mobile is getting worse and worse, slower and slower, more unstable than ever. I am never never ever going to buy a windows device !
Anonymous
May 21, 2008
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Anonymous
June 16, 2008
WOW - This is the best news I have had all week! I downloaded the WM6_BT_DUN.cab file, installed and wahey, my TYTN II WM6.1 now works perfectly with my tomtom ONE XL and Vodafone contract. TomTom should put this info directly on their website so everyone can easily find it. Thanks again you are a life saver, Bob.
Anonymous
July 07, 2008
I have read all posts. Tried Connect my Orbit 2 with TNS400. Same problem DUN. Tried the BT_DUN.CAB, but still unable to connect TomTom Services like Traffic. Anybody managed to get it working?
Anonymous
July 11, 2008
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Anonymous
July 18, 2008
This is the kind of stuff that proves that Windows Mobile is not made for users, but for partners.
Anonymous
July 26, 2008
Our VPN doesn't work anymore. Where can i change the default 192.168.0.1 dhcp server ip adres ? This ip adres interferes with our network. I dont like to remove features and replace them with less performant features that are more easy to implement. Both should be in WM6
Anonymous
August 17, 2008
It's sound environmental policy. Each time a feature is 'turned off by default' I check my older devices to see if they will still work together as I want them to. If they won't, I don't upgrade. I've saved a small fortune in cash and and a fair chunk of landfill... and I'm still connected. Someone had better catch on to the power of those that actually buy and use these things.
Anonymous
September 27, 2008
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Anonymous
November 14, 2008
I can see how ICS would be better if I can receive a call and still be online. DUN is very convinient because it works like a regular modem. I've never used ICS, but will consider using it now if I can get to receive calls and be on the phone at the same time. As long as it's a one time set up. Josue Porres
Anonymous
November 15, 2008
I find that ICS is good, but whenever it is enabled, I could not receive incoming voice call...I am using Asus P750 WM6.1 Is it phone problem? Or is there any patch I need to install?
Anonymous
March 03, 2009
So it's now March 2009, almost 2 years after the original post and my TomTom will still not talk to my MS Mobile device. Maybe that's why MS is suing TomTom, for being so backward and legacy??????
Anonymous
March 03, 2009
So it's now March 2009, almost 2 years after the original post and my TomTom will still not talk to my MS Mobile device. Maybe that's why MS is suing TomTom, for being so backward and legacy??????
Anonymous
March 18, 2009
I recently updated my phone to a Palm Treo Pro, which has Windows Mobile. Reading your blog, I now know why I can't get my Nokia N810 Internet Tablet to talk to my phone i.e. it needs Bluetooth Dun. Can you please bring back asap
Anonymous
March 31, 2009
What is meant by "DUN Profile failed"? Everytime I connect my laptop to the internet, this msg appears. how would I solve the problem. Thank you very much
Anonymous
June 04, 2009
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Anonymous
July 04, 2009
Peter Chen It's possible, just must change some modem connections strings in registry
Anonymous
July 17, 2009
I too abandoned using Windows Mobile devices (imate Jam then tmobile mda then tmobile dash) when DUN networking disappeared after upgrading WM on the Dash. As a very long time Windows user (and stock holder) I once again can only assume that while MSoft writes code, they rarely ever use their end products. Before upgrading WM on the Dash, using bluetooth to connect it to my laptop while traveling took a few seconds. After the upgrade I wasted a day trying to figure out why it wouldn't work anymore, also tried some fixes that didn't work. So bye bye Windows Mobile forever. I'm now using the cheapest phone Motorola sells with Edge and DUN/Bluetooth to hop on to the web from my netbook. Too bad Microsoft can't be part of what's going on now because of their plans for something that hasn't happened yet.

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Why did we remove Bluetooth DUN?

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